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Completely disagree with glasgow mum. We only need to look at the surveys and research about people's attitudes to know people certainly do still blame women for rape depending on what they wear, so use of the skirt is far from outdated. There's actually been recent research too about young people's attitudes - sure it's googlable - and they also often have troubling beliefs about violence against women. In fact, the author need only take a look at some of the comments on this website or some of the comments about the campaign generally to see that those attitudes are still very much in force.

In terms of mens reactions I think it's absolutely spot on. I'd love to see men challenge each other about their attitudes but unfortunately that is still very rare. I think it's highly unlikely that in a real situation a guy would be called out for expressing those attitudes. The most likely scenario would be that others in the group would laugh alongside him and make their own - sometimes worse - contributions and that some who were uncomfortable would remain silent or be quieter.

Author: J, Female, glasgow
Date: 08/07/2010

I think when we and those we associate with have attitudes which tend towards feminism, or equality, then we make the mistaken assumption that this attitude is the prevailing one. We tend to converse with like-minded people and if preaching is our wont then it's to the converted.
I think some of the responses in this forum educate us that medieval attitudes are still alive and kicking and perhaps this ad is not as far off the mark as we would have thought initially.
As the mother of a son and a daughter, both in their early twenties, who have been brought up with feminist values I am frequently disheartened by their stated sense of isolation when trying to challenge stereotypical views in, what I would consider, tame and moderate ways.
We stick our heads above the parapet when we are very brave or when it feels safe to do so. I think this is why the majority remain silent. This is not a particularly safe world.

Author: Trees, Female, Scotland
Date: 09/07/2010

Dear J,

Are you then saying that an awareness raising campaign should have no educative purpose. Are one half of the population beyond redemption ? If so, what is the point of campaigning ?
Attitudes are not fixed - they are developed and constructed in the social context you grow up in and we all have a task to do in helping the young develop informed attitudes on a whole range of issues including sexual behaviour. I don't share your pessimistic view of developing male attitudes. Over the centuries people have been equally scathing of improving attitudes on a whole host of human rights issues including slavery and racism against tremendous odds yet it can be done. Surely this is work equally worth doing in our homes and schools, on our TV's and through campaigns such as this. In terms of the Not Ever campaign how would you measure the impact otherwise ? It has to be about attitude development as you say yourself - or are we doomed to be stuck in this static image of sexual relations for ever ? - as if, I say

Author: glasgow mum, Female, glasgow
Date: 09/07/2010

I'm hesitant to comment here because gender summaries are always wrong and inflamatory - specially around an issue like this one. I agree that its clear there's a problem that men still have issues with their attitudes about this, that much is clear by the very fact this ad campaign was approved. Never the less as a guy the ad is a little insulting and very worrying that we'd need an advert on tv to discourage rape. I'm not entirely sure what misinformed guys will be changed by it but then I could just chalk that down to simply not understanding the thought process of a rapist.
Anyways, I guess i'd like to tackle another offensive assumption or generalisation that I find to be inaccurate. I'm a guy, i've grown up with guys and insurprisingly I hit the town with guys. For all this time I have very very very rarely encountered anything even similar to this notion that men have this wolfish attitude that women 'ask,' or in any way invite sexual assault. Don't get me wrong, i know alot of pigs and would be casanovas who obectify women or get to know the ladies just to sleep with them and i've heard alot of insulting comments from guys about women. But i've really rarely encountered this attitude that sexual assault could be justified or invited or defended. I've seen iffy social treatment but nothing like this. On top of that most of the dudes that I know are respectful and would not stand for comments like one in this advert. Now and then i've encountered older men I would not want to leave a girl alone with but thats about it.
Clearly there are problems here and its disturbing that this ideas prevail as much as... surverys and the like say they do. I do still kinda feel the need to similarly diminish the generalistation about men that this ad suggests - or worse the one you suggest.

Author: Euan, Male, Glasgow
Date: 09/07/2010

glasgow mum: 'How about really challenging stereotypes and showing us the reaction of the other young men in the ad to their unreconstructed pal. Isn't it just as likely in authentic conversation they'd call him for the scumbag he truly is ..'

While I agree that this would have also made for an effective ad (of another kind), is what you're saying a guess, or a statement born of observation? The truth is that most men, in my experience, don't see it as a duty to call other men on their misogyny. The most likely response--because it's the easiest response--is just silence. I wish it weren't so.

Euan: 'For all this time I have very very very rarely encountered anything even similar to this notion that men have this wolfish attitude that women 'ask,' or in any way invite sexual assault. Don't get me wrong, i know alot of pigs and would be casanovas who obectify women or get to know the ladies just to sleep with them and i've heard alot of insulting comments from guys about women. But i've really rarely encountered this attitude that sexual assault could be justified or invited or defended.'

What on earth are you expecting to hear people say in public? "I am a rapist and I like to rape"? Read between the lines. Every sexually objectifying comment, every misogynistic insult, gives tacit approval to rape.

Author: Nick, Male, Singapore
Date: 12/07/2010

Dear Nick,
Reading between the lines puts conclusions in the hands of the observers and then your at the mercy at how good a reader they are. For example damaged men who rape women on the basis of what they wear would say they were reading between the lines. I just don't find that an acceptable stance. I hear what your saying and you're probably right that a society that hungers for womens bodies is one that at least partially nurtures disturbed men. But your leading the charge against a considerably larger area there with regards to how some guys process their attraction to women. I really disagree that such comments - unless perhaps the really really cringe worthy ones - give any kind of approval for sexual assault. Alot of them and that whole culture is rightly offensive to women and I agree its not acceptable - it gives lots of approval for using women and overlooking their personalities but its still on another planet from sexual assault. Maybe we've just met different biggots

Author: Euan, Male, Glasgow
Date: 15/07/2010

The same ambient norms that "give lots of approval for using women and overlooking their personalities"--as you rightly point out--also create the mindset that women aren't fully human, don't have agency, and exist for the pleasure of men. Ask yourself: what stops the man who does, and approves, the actions you've mentioned from also approving and committing rape? If it's right to look at women as sacks of useful flesh with troublesome things like, oh, personalities and wills attached, why would it be wrong to rape them? I put it to you that these unremorseful users and verbal (at least) misogynists you've met are restrained not by the conviction that rape is wrong (which would be inconsistent with their demonstrated attitudes), but by the fear that overtly defending rape will meet with social disapproval, and that committing it will meet with legal punishment. What, I wonder, would they do in a situation where they feel safe from punishment?

Author: Nick, Male, Singapore
Date: 16/07/2010

Hey Nick,
I hear what your saying and like quite a few things you have to wonder what some people would do if they knew theyd get away with it or if they were able to do it in the 1st place. Its a sad fact and a difficult one to tackle however we look at it. I also think your right that an attitude that sees women only as objects of pleasure without feelings and only seeks to find ways of using them is an attitude of a rapist or like you say a rapist whos just not had the chance to commit rape yet.
But again I feel we're talking in terms that are far to black and white and not looking at this in terms of degrees. Some symptoms of that attitude does not immediately entail it. I think most biggots and would be casanovas are mainly concerned with using women and I guess they dont mind too much if she regrets it or if she finds out they werent quite as charming as they 1st appeared. I really do agree this shows little concern for her feelings but no concern? Its something intuitive I admit but you must know the people im talking about, its just too cynical too assume they don't care at all because they don't care as much as they should. Even more intuitively, If a guy cant help but find a girl extremely attractive and he struggles to look at her without fantasising about her - I hope you arent going to tell me this guy is on the road to raping her if he can get away with it. I just dont think male attitudes can be bracketed so easily.

Author: Euan, Male, Glasgow
Date: 16/08/2010